https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-new-yorker-interview/has-steve-kerr-had-enoug h Has Steve Kerr Had Enough? Steve Kerr 是否已經受夠了？ The head coach for the Golden State Warriors on his future with the team, his co mplicated relationship with Draymond Green, and whether he might give politics a try. 金州勇士隊總教練談他與球隊的未來、他與 Draymond Green 複雜的關係，以及他是否可能 嘗試從政。 Plainspokenness is an endangered attribute in pro sports. Players and coaches ha ve become maddeningly mealy-mouthed, striving to avoid upsetting agents, sponsor s, owners, fans, thin-skinned politicians, and whoever else might object. Not so with the Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr, who has publicly dubbed D onald Trump a “blowhard” who uses “racist, misogynist” words and is “ill-su ited” to be President. (Trump, for his part, has called Kerr a “scared” “lit tle boy.”) Kerr’s success is as rare as his candor. “I’m the luckiest guy in the N.B.A.’s history,” he said last weekend, as his twelfth coaching season c ame to a close, earlier than desired, during the play-in round. Kerr has won nin e N.B.A. championships—more than any franchise but the Lakers and the Celtics— and counted Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Gregg Po povich, Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, and Jimmy Butler among his coaches, teammates , and players. Not a bad group of co-workers. 在職業體育中，直言不諱已經成為一種瀕臨消失的特質。球員與教練變得令人抓狂地含糊其 詞，努力避免惹惱經紀人、贊助商、老闆、球迷、脆弱的政治人物，以及任何可能反對的人 。但金州勇士隊總教練 Steve Kerr 並非如此，他曾公開稱 Donald Trump 是一個「愛吹牛 的人」，使用「種族歧視、厭女」的言詞，且「不適合」擔任總統。（而 Trump 則稱 Kerr 是個「害怕的」「小男孩」。）Kerr 的成功與他的坦率一樣罕見。「我是 NBA 歷史上最 幸運的人，」他在上週末表示，當時他的第十二個執教賽季在附加賽階段提早結束。Kerr 已贏得九座 NBA 總冠軍——僅次於洛杉磯湖人與波士頓塞爾提克——並曾與 Michael Jord an、Scottie Pippen、Tim Duncan、David Robinson、Gregg Popovich、Steph Curry、Kev in Durant 和 Jimmy Butler 共事過，無論是作為他的教練、隊友或球員。這樣的同事陣容 可不差。 Butler’s A.C.L. tear, back in January, effectively doomed Kerr’s already slim chances of winning a tenth title with a graying core of star players. Ten rings would put him just three behind Phil Jackson, who was Kerr’s coach on the ninet ies Chicago Bulls team that became the N.B.A.’s first truly global brand. It wa s easy to miss Kerr back then—a slim six-foot-three guard coming off the bench, good for a couple of threes, no dunks. Then he hit the game-winner with six sec onds left to seal the Bulls’ fifth title, in 1997, and made a daring little jok e at Jordan’s expense during the subsequent victory parade. “Phil told Michael , he said, ‘Michael, I want you to take the last shot,’ ” Kerr began. “Micha el said, ‘You know, Phil, I don’t feel real comfortable in these situations. S o, maybe we ought to go in another direction. Why don’t we go to Steve?’ So I thought to myself, Well, guess I’ve got to bail Michael out again.” Jordan, fa mous for taking things personally, just chuckled. Jimmy Butler 在一月時的前十字韌帶撕裂，基本上終結了 Kerr 以一群逐漸老化的核心球 星再奪第十冠的微薄希望。若能拿到十枚冠軍戒，Kerr 將只落後 Phil Jackson 三枚——J ackson 曾在九○年代執教芝加哥公牛隊，那支球隊成為 NBA 第一個真正的全球品牌。當時 的 Kerr 很容易被忽略——身高六呎三吋、身形精瘦的替補後衛，能投幾顆三分球，但不會 灌籃。直到 1997 年，他在剩下六秒時投進致勝球，為公牛鎖定第五座冠軍，並在隨後的勝 利遊行中開了一個大膽的小玩笑調侃 Michael Jordan。「Phil 跟 Michael 說，『Michael ，我要你投最後一球，』」Kerr 開始說。「Michael 說，『你知道的，Phil，我在這種情 況下不太自在。所以，也許我們該換個方向。為什麼不交給 Steve？』於是我心想，好吧， 看來我又得幫 Michael 收拾殘局了。」以愛記仇著稱的 Jordan 只是笑了笑。 I met Kerr a few days ago at his modest office in the Chase Center, where the Wa rriors play, in San Francisco. He had just finished conducting his annual exit i nterviews with players, staff, and management, following the season’s end. A sm all wooden placard on his desk read “WINNING IS GOOD”—a joking riff, he expla ined, on the line from “Animal House” that “knowledge is good.” The office’ s whiteboard walls, frequently covered in a granddaughter’s doodling, noted Ker r’s “core values”: “COMPETITIVENESS, JOY, MINDFULNESS, COMPASSION.” There w ere also a few roller bags, about which Kerr—whose contract just expired, and w hose future with the organization is an open question—only said, “It’s a long story.” Over the course of two hours, we discussed his hopes for next year, hi s complicated relationship with Draymond Green, the potential benefits of elimin ating the three-point shot, and whether he might give politics a try. Our conver sation has been edited and condensed. 幾天前，我在舊金山金州勇士隊主場 Chase Center 的一間樸素辦公室裡見到了 Kerr。他 剛結束球季後對球員、教練團與管理層進行的年度離隊面談。他桌上有一塊小木牌寫著「WI NNING IS GOOD」（勝利是好事）——他解釋說，這是對電影《Animal House》中「knowled ge is good」的一個玩笑式改編。辦公室的白板牆上常被孫女的塗鴉覆蓋，同時也寫著 Ker r 的「核心價值」：「競爭力、快樂、正念、同理心」。旁邊還有幾個行李箱，而對於這些 行李，合約剛到期、未來仍未明朗的 Kerr 只說：「說來話長。」在兩個小時的訪談中，我 們談到了他對明年的期望、他與 Draymond Green 複雜的關係、取消三分球的潛在好處，以 及他是否可能嘗試從政。以下為編輯整理後的內容。 I don’t typically sleep in the childhood bedroom of my interview subjects, but your mom, Ann, was kind enough to host me in yours, in L.A., in 2018, when I wro te a piece about her for the magazine. Now in her nineties, Ann is the director of the Fulbright Visiting Scholar Program in Southern California, a lover of Mid dle Eastern culture, a morning swimmer, a rope swinger, a memoirist, and, as she says, the mother of “two Ph.D.s, an M.B.A., & an N.B.A.” 我通常不會睡在受訪者的童年房間裡，但你的母親 Ann 在 2018 年我為雜誌撰寫她的專題 時，很好心地讓我住在你位於洛杉磯的房間。如今已九十多歲的 Ann，是南加州傅爾布萊特 訪問學者計畫的主任，也是一位熱愛中東文化的人、晨泳者、盪繩者、回憶錄作家，而且正 如她所說，是「兩位博士、一位 MBA，以及一位 NBA」的母親。 [Laughs.] That’s her line. （笑）那是她的經典台詞。 I was saddened to learn that the house where I stayed, and where you grew up, bu rned in the Palisades Fire. What was your childhood like there? 得知我曾住過、也是你成長的那棟房子在 Palisades 火災中被燒毀，我感到很難過。你在 那裡的童年是什麼樣子？ Man, what a place to grow up: Pacific Palisades. My dad was a professor of Middl e East politics and got the job at U.C.L.A., and we lived in a couple of other h ouses before my parents found that house. It’s got a panoramic view: Los Angele s all the way up to Malibu and the ocean. It’s amazing. Today there’s no way a professor at U.C.L.A. could afford it. A very different time economically, diff erent time politically. 天啊，那真是個成長的好地方：Pacific Palisades。我父親是中東政治的教授，在 UCLA 任教，我們在搬進那棟房子之前住過幾個不同的地方。那裡擁有全景視野：從洛杉磯一路看 到 Malibu 和大海，真的很驚人。現在 UCLA 的教授根本不可能負擔得起。那是一個在經濟 與政治上都完全不同的時代。 Ann mentioned coming home from a weekend away, during your teen-age years, to fi nd that her potted plants smelled like beer. Ann 提到，在你青少年時期，她有一次週末外出回家後，發現她的盆栽聞起來像啤酒。 That would have been when I was in high school. And, yeah, I may or may not have authorized a party for all my friends and forty or so extra people. 那應該是我高中時候的事。嗯，我可能有，也可能沒有，讓我的朋友們加上大概四十幾個額 外的人在家裡開了一場派對。 The family also spent time in Cairo and Beirut, where you were born. 你們家也曾在開羅和你出生的貝魯特生活過一段時間。 Mostly in the Palisades with intermittent sabbaticals from my dad. We spent time in, let’s see: a year in Aix-en-Provence, in the South of France, when I was i n kindergarten; three years in Cairo. Then back to L.A. When I returned to Cairo , for ninth and tenth grade, my dad was doing research and writing a book and te aching at the American University in Cairo. 大多時間我們住在 Palisades，但我父親會不定期休假。我們曾在幾個地方生活：我幼稚園 時在法國南部 Aix-en-Provence 住了一年；在開羅住了三年；之後回到洛杉磯。等我九、 十年級再回到開羅時，我父親正在做研究、寫書，並在開羅美國大學任教。 Was there a basketball culture in Cairo then? 當時的開羅有籃球文化嗎？ I went to an American prep school called Cairo American College. I still have gr eat friends from there. For ninth and tenth grades, I played on the school team. Every year we would fly to Greece, to Athens, to play in the tournament against other schools in the region. That was the highlight. This would have been, like , 1979, 1980. If there was a basketball gym in the entire country of Egypt, we n ever found it. So our games were played on dirt courts. Basketball was not reall y popular in Cairo, but these sporting clubs would field men’s teams and we usu ally were playing against players a lot older than us. And bigger. But we had th e advantage because we all grew up playing basketball. The inverse was true in s occer. The American kids would take on the Egyptian kids at our school and we wo uld just get absolutely destroyed. 我就讀一所叫做 Cairo American College 的美式預備學校，我至今仍和那裡的朋友保持很 好的關係。九、十年級時，我在校隊打球。每年我們都會飛去希臘雅典，參加與該地區其他 學校的錦標賽，那是最精彩的時刻。那大概是 1979、1980 年左右。如果整個埃及有一座籃 球館，我們也沒找到，所以我們的比賽都是在土場上進行。籃球在開羅並不算流行，但一些 運動俱樂部會組男子隊，我們通常都要對上比我們年長、體型也更大的球員。但我們有優勢 ，因為我們從小就打籃球。足球則相反，美國學生對上學校裡的埃及學生時，我們總是被打 得體無完膚。 You learned how to shoot in the wind, I guess? 我猜，你是在風中學會投籃的？ The wind and the pebbles that were on the dirt courts. Later on, I had to deal w ith the gaps in the floor at the Boston Garden. 還有土場上的風和小石子。後來，我還得應付波士頓花園球館地板上的縫隙。 Your dad, Malcolm Kerr, was assassinated by the Islamic Jihad Organization, a wi ng of Hezbollah, in 1984, in Beirut, where he was the president of the American University of Beirut. He loved the Arab world and attempted to foster cross-cult ural respect and understanding. I’m curious what qualities and interests you in herited from him. 你的父親 Malcolm Kerr 在 1984 年於貝魯特遭到真主黨旗下的伊斯蘭聖戰組織暗殺，當時 他是貝魯特美國大學的校長。他熱愛阿拉伯世界，並致力於促進跨文化的尊重與理解。我很 好奇你從他身上繼承了哪些特質與興趣。 I think I inherited his patience. Growing up, we would host people from all walk s of life, back-yard dinner parties, in the Palisades or in Cairo. I was a reall y shy kid. I really never said anything. So I just observed a lot. And I remembe r so many nights where somebody would be dominating the conversation and my dad would just patiently wait. And it always struck me just how humble and quiet he was. He was so smart, but he knew when to speak. And I think I learned a lot obs erving his patience and his dignity. 我想我繼承了他的耐心。成長過程中，我們常在 Pacific Palisades 或開羅的後院舉辦晚 餐聚會，招待各行各業的人。我是個非常害羞的孩子，幾乎不說話，所以我觀察得很多。我 記得有許多夜晚，總有某個人主導整場談話，而我父親只是耐心地聆聽。讓我印象深刻的是 ，他是多麼謙遜而安靜。他非常聰明，但知道何時該開口。我想我從觀察他的耐心與尊嚴中 學到了很多。 A different kind of leadership than you see nowadays. 這和現在常見的領導方式很不一樣。 I think we’re as weak as we’ve ever been as a country, at least in a long time , because our leadership is so misguided. There’s a lack of humility, a lack of dignity, a lack of understanding of the world, a lack of embracing other perspe ctives. The belligerence. 我認為我們這個國家現在可以說是很長一段時間以來最脆弱的時刻之一，因為我們的領導方 向錯誤。缺乏謙遜、缺乏尊嚴、缺乏對世界的理解，也缺乏接納不同觀點的能力，還充滿了 好鬥性。 How have you processed the war in Lebanon and Iran right now? 你是如何看待現在黎巴嫩與伊朗的戰爭？ My dad was killed by Iranian proxies forty-two years ago. I have no regard for t he Iranian regime whatsoever. But the answer does not lie in starting a war and killing innocent people. Imagine being a parent of one of the one hundred and se venty-five girls who died when their school was bombed. Their loss, their suffer ing . . . How are they going to feel about America? Violence begets violence. We ’ve seen it in Israel and Lebanon as well. There was an opening for Israel to h andle their business with the Palestinians diplomatically that would have solidi fied the Abraham Accords and allowed stronger alliances with Arab countries that would have really cornered Iran. Instead, Israel sought revenge for October 7th and now seventy-two thousand Palestinians have been killed and Israeli settlers are taking over the West Bank illegally, with the approval of Israel’s governm ent and the U.S. Ambassador, Mike Huckabee. That’s not a path to any sort of pe ace or security for Israel or the rest of the Middle East. 我父親在四十二年前被伊朗的代理人殺害。我對伊朗政權毫無好感。但解決之道不是發動戰 爭、殺害無辜的人。試想，如果你是那一百七十五名在學校遭轟炸喪生的女孩的父母之一， 他們的失去與痛苦……他們會如何看待美國？暴力只會引發更多暴力。我們在以色列與黎巴 嫩也看到了這一點。原本以色列有機會以外交方式處理與巴勒斯坦的問題，這本可以鞏固《 亞伯拉罕協議》，並與阿拉伯國家建立更強的聯盟，從而真正牽制伊朗。但相反地，以色列 選擇為 10 月 7 日進行報復，如今已有七萬兩千名巴勒斯坦人喪生，而以色列定居者在政 府與美國大使 Mike Huckabee 的支持下，非法接管西岸。這並不是通往以色列或整個中東 任何形式和平或安全的道路。 How did basketball function in your life following your father’s murder? You we re playing at the University of Arizona. Did basketball help you grieve, or dist ract you from grief? 在你父親遇害之後，籃球在你的生活中扮演了什麼角色？你當時在亞利桑那大學打球。籃球 是幫助你哀悼，還是讓你暫時逃避悲傷？ Part of how I grieved. I found out about my dad’s death through a phone call fr om a university colleague at 3 A.M., and I went to practice the next day. It was the worst moment of my life. It was shocking, even though I knew the danger. My dad was so well respected there: so many Arab friends, spoke fluent Arabic. He was fostering good will between America and Lebanon. He was a victim of politica l terrorism, near the very beginning of this current era of Islamic extremist te rrorism and animosity toward America. The Iranian Revolution happened in ’79, w hen we were living in Cairo. 那是我哀悼的一部分。我是在凌晨三點接到一位大學職員的電話，才得知父親過世的消息， 隔天我還是去練球。那是我人生中最糟的一刻。即使我知道存在危險，仍然令人震驚。我父 親在當地非常受人尊敬，有許多阿拉伯朋友，也能流利說阿拉伯語。他致力於促進美國與黎 巴嫩之間的善意。他是政治恐怖主義的受害者，而且那幾乎正是當前這個伊斯蘭極端主義恐 怖活動與反美情緒時代的開端。伊朗革命發生在 1979 年，當時我們住在開羅。 What do you remember? 你記得什麼？ I remember the Shah’s kids were suddenly students at Cairo American College bec ause the Shah was deposed and went to Egypt. So we’re reading about the Iranian Revolution, and the hostages, and all of a sudden there’s these three kids wal king around campus with security. Word got around, but I had no idea of the poli tical significance of that moment. I was just watching the news like everybody e lse, saying, “My God, why are Americans being held hostage in Iran?” That even t, along with the Grand Mosque seizure in 1979, created a backlash against Weste rn thought, Western ideology. Those events were the beginning of what we’re exp eriencing today. 我記得國王的孩子突然成了開羅美國大學的學生，因為國王被推翻後去了埃及。我們一邊讀 著關於伊朗革命與人質事件的新聞，突然間校園裡出現了這三個有保全隨行的孩子。消息傳 開了，但我當時完全不知道那一刻在政治上的重大意義。我就像其他人一樣看著新聞，心想 ：「天啊，為什麼美國人會在伊朗被挾持？」這件事，加上 1979 年的大清真寺事件，引發 了對西方思想與意識形態的反彈。那些事件正是我們今日所經歷局勢的開端。 When did you realize that you could play in the N.B.A.? 你是什麼時候意識到自己可以打進 NBA 的？ My senior year at Arizona, we had a great team. I started to dream a little bit: maybe I could sneak into the N.B.A. for a year, have a cup of coffee and be abl e to tell my kids I played. 在亞利桑那大學的最後一年，我們是一支很強的球隊。我開始有一點夢想：也許我可以混進 NBA 打個一年，短暫體驗一下，然後能跟我的孩子說我曾經打過。 You ultimately played for half a dozen teams, including Michael Jordan’s Bulls. 你最終效力過大約六支球隊，其中包括 Michael Jordan 所在的芝加哥公牛隊。 I came off the bench. I literally never started a single game in five years. I p layed twenty to twenty-five minutes. And I fit perfectly into the offense that P hil Jackson wanted to play, which was the triangle offense. My role was facilita tor, passer, long-range shooter: shoot when I’m open, pass when I’m not, never turn the ball over. I was able to thrive in Chicago based on a set of circumsta nces—ultimately playing next to Michael Jordan and feeding off of him because h e attracted so much attention. 我主要是替補出場。在五年裡，我真的從來沒有先發過一場比賽。我每場大約打二十到二十 五分鐘。而我非常適合 Phil Jackson 想打的進攻體系，也就是三角進攻。我的角色是組織 者、傳球者、外線射手：有空檔就投，沒有空檔就傳，永遠不要失誤。在芝加哥，我能夠發 揮，是因為一連串條件的配合——最終能與 Michael Jordan 並肩作戰，並從他身上獲益， 因為他吸引了大量防守注意力。 I was surprised to learn that you punched Michael Jordan during a practice, in 1 995. Your mother described this fistfight to me as the two of you “rubbing elbo ws a bit.” Is that right? 我很驚訝得知你在 1995 年的一次訓練中曾經揮拳打了 Michael Jordan。你母親把這場衝 突形容為你們只是「稍微有點肢體接觸」。是這樣嗎？ I like to say, I hit him in the fist with my eye. 我喜歡說，是我用眼睛去撞他的拳頭。 How do you compare Jordan, your teammate, to LeBron James, who entered the leagu e the year you retired? 你會怎麼比較你的隊友 Jordan，與你退休那年進入聯盟的 LeBron James？ LeBron’s brilliance doesn’t lie in the same skill set that Michael’s did. It lies in more of a holistic game where he dominates with his pace and his athleti cism and his passing. I’ve always felt scoring is secondary for LeBron, but he ’s the greatest scorer in the history of the N.B.A.! LeBron 的卓越之處並不在於和 Michael 相同的技術能力，而是在於更全面的比賽風格，他 以節奏、運動能力和傳球主宰比賽。我一直覺得對 LeBron 來說得分是次要的，但他卻是 N BA 歷史上最偉大的得分手！ Almost incidentally. 幾乎是順便做到的。 Yeah, incidentally. Some of that is longevity: he’s a machine. I mean, I think he’s literally the greatest athlete on the face of the planet and in the course of human history. Playing with Michael, I saw the killer instinct, the emotiona l dominance he had over not only the other team but the officials, the entire ar ena. I don’t see that with LeBron. So they’re different, as far as the emotion al part of it. Everybody came into a series against Michael knowing they were go ing to lose. There’s never been anybody like that. Maybe Bill Russell. But I’v e never felt the same way on a basketball floor as I did with Michael. 對，算是順便做到的。其中一部分來自他的長青：他就像機器一樣。我認為他確實是地球上 ，甚至人類歷史上最偉大的運動員。和 Michael 一起打球時，我看到了他的殺手本能，他 在情緒上對對手、裁判甚至整個球館的掌控力。我在 LeBron 身上沒有看到這一點。所以在 情緒層面上，他們是不同的。每個人在系列賽對上 Michael 時，都知道自己會輸。從來沒 有過這樣的人。也許 Bill Russell 算一個。但我在籃球場上從未有過像和 Michael 一起 時那樣的感受。 You retired from playing in 2003, after fifteen seasons and five titles, the las t of which you won with San Antonio. I should note that, while you didn’t shoot the volume of threes that players do now, you were very accurate: your career p ercentage of 45.4 from behind the arc is the best in N.B.A. history. Steph’s ca reer number is around forty-two per cent right now. Do you ever rub that in with him? 你在 2003 年結束球員生涯，共打了十五個賽季並拿下五座冠軍，最後一冠是在聖安東尼奧 馬刺隊奪得。我應該補充的是，雖然你沒有像現在球員那樣大量出手三分球，但你的命中率 非常高：生涯三分命中率 45.4% 是 NBA 歷史最佳。Steph 目前的生涯命中率大約是 42%。 你會拿這點去調侃他嗎？ Given that he has provided four extra championship rings for my collection, I ha ve not ventured down that path yet. 考量到他幫我多拿了四枚冠軍戒，我目前還沒走上那條路。 When did you know you’d coach? 你是什麼時候知道自己會當教練的？ When I was playing in college, I thought I would coach. I didn’t think I’d pla y in the N.B.A. I thought, I love the game so much, family of teachers, I’ll pr obably be a coach. 我在大學打球時就覺得自己會當教練。我不認為自己會打進 NBA。我想，我這麼熱愛這項運 動，而且來自一個教師家庭，我大概會成為教練。 You felt like you saw the game well? 你覺得自己對比賽的理解很好？ Yeah. And I loved it. I was obsessed. And that played out, unfortunately, in bea ting myself up. It mattered so much to me that I was really self-critical. And I had to learn the hard way, how defeating that was. And so being that obsessed w ith something and that competitive, it helped me, but it hurt me, too. 是的，而且我很熱愛，我非常著迷。不幸的是，這表現在我對自己過於苛刻。這對我太重要 了，所以我很常自我批評。我是用很痛苦的方式才學到這樣其實會擊垮自己。對一件事如此 著迷、如此好勝，既幫助了我，也傷害了我。 How did Gregg Popovich and Phil Jackson influence you? Gregg Popovich 和 Phil Jackson 對你有什麼影響？ Both guys had a similar philosophy, but they went about it in completely differe nt ways. Pop’s a military guy. Phil is a hippie from Montana who wanted to embr ace his Zen side and his love of Native American history. Completely different h uman beings, but they both had this wonderful sense of perspective where they ta ught how important it was to do your absolute best every day to become your best . And at the same time, how meaningless a basketball game actually was in the bi gger scheme of things. They found that balance. 這兩個人有相似的理念，但採取完全不同的方式。Pop 是軍事風格的人。Phil 則是來自蒙 大拿的嬉皮，擁抱禪宗思想與對美洲原住民歷史的熱愛。他們是完全不同的人，但都擁有一 種很棒的視角，教導我們每天盡全力成為最好的自己有多重要。同時也讓我們明白，在更宏 觀的層面下，一場籃球比賽其實是多麼微不足道。他們找到了那個平衡。 I’ve heard speculation that Draymond Green, your temperamental forward, might c oach one day. He’s fascinating: a second-round pick who doesn’t shoot that wel l; who isn’t super athletic or tall; whose box score doesn’t stand out; who’s prone to altercations; but who has also been described as the linchpin of some of the best teams in N.B.A. history. How? 我聽說有人猜測你那位脾氣火爆的前鋒 Draymond Green 有一天可能會當教練。他很有意思 ：一位二輪選秀，投籃不算好；不算特別高或特別有運動能力；數據表現也不突出；容易發 生衝突；但同時又被形容為 NBA 歷史上最強球隊之一的核心支柱。為什麼？ He’s the best defensive player I’ve ever seen. And that’s saying a lot, given that I played with Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman. The modern game demands so much more than it did in the nineties. You have to be able to guard all five po sitions, because there’s so much pace and energy and crossmatches. You race bac k on defense, you’ve got to guard the guy in front of you. And then there’s th e “pick-on” game: the opposing team is going to bring the weakest defender int o every pick-and-roll to gain an advantage. Draymond, he can guard any action, a ny position, any player. And he can also blow up the play behind the play if he ’s not involved in the action because of his brain, his speed, his reach. I thi nk he’s no more than six-five and a half— 他是我見過最好的防守球員。這說明了很多，因為我曾和 Scottie Pippen 和 Dennis Rodm an 一起打球。現代比賽的要求遠比九○年代更高。你必須能防守五個位置，因為節奏更快 、能量更高，而且對位更頻繁。你快速回防，就得守住眼前的人。還有所謂的「點名戰術」 ：對手會在每一次擋拆中把最弱的防守者拉出來利用。Draymond 可以防守任何戰術、任何 位置、任何球員。而且即使他不在當前戰術中，他也能憑藉他的頭腦、速度與臂展破壞整個 戰術。我想他大概不到六呎五吋半—— With a seven-foot wingspan. 臂展有七呎。 Seven-one wingspan, incredible strength. He wins every jump ball because he’s q uicker to anticipate what’s happening, which means he’s getting to the rotatio n faster. He’s seeing what’s happening faster. He’s just a step ahead of the other nine guys. 七呎一的臂展，力量驚人。他幾乎每次跳球都能贏，因為他更快預判發生的事情，這代表他 在輪轉上更快到位。他看懂局勢的速度更快。他總是比場上其他九個人快一步。 So, a coach? 所以，他會當教練嗎？ I don’t know that he’ll coach. He definitely has the brain for it. I don’t kn ow if he has the patience. He’s an incredibly passionate, emotional guy, and th at passion and energy has frequently gotten him in trouble. And I love him. I th ink he’s a really good-hearted person with an incredible brain, but if he wants to coach he’s going to have to learn how to control some of that emotion, that desire, and that fire that burns within him, and it’s not an easy thing to do. 我不確定他會不會當教練。他絕對有那樣的頭腦，但我不確定他是否有足夠的耐心。他是一 個非常熱情、情緒強烈的人，而這份熱情與能量常常讓他惹上麻煩。我很喜歡他。我覺得他 是一個心地很好、頭腦極佳的人，但如果他想當教練，他就必須學會控制內心的情緒、渴望 與那股燃燒的火焰，而這並不容易。 You’ve come to blows— 你們曾經動手過—— Yeah. I mean, people pulling us apart. And in my first five years, we would get into three knockdown, dragouts a year. Part of it was, I just had to show the re st of the team that I’m in charge. You have to do things by a set of standards. It’s a community that you’re building, not just a team—a little society with values and standards and expectations. And then you’re a community that has to police itself. The coach has to demand certain behaviors, certain habits. So th en for a long time we had a truce. I understood him so well. He understood me. B ut this year we had a major blowout in December. He’s such a unique person. The re’s things he’s done that I can never forgive him for, and yet I will do anyt hing for him. 是的，就是那種需要別人把我們拉開的情況。在我前五年執教時，我們一年大概會有三次激 烈衝突。某種程度上，是因為我必須讓球隊其他人知道這裡歸我管。你必須按照一套標準做 事。你建立的不只是球隊，而是一個社群——一個有價值觀、標準與期待的小社會。而這個 社群也必須自我約束。教練必須要求某些行為與習慣。後來我們有很長一段時間維持停戰狀 態。我非常了解他，他也了解我。但今年十二月我們又爆發了一次嚴重衝突。他是一個非常 獨特的人。有些他做過的事，我永遠無法原諒，但我依然願意為他做任何事。 What Steph Curry does on the court is more readily appreciable. How do you compa re him with Jordan? Steph Curry 在場上的表現更容易被看懂。你怎麼拿他和 Jordan 比較？ He’s an incredible leader. Michael was an incredible leader himself, but it’s an entirely different approach. I mean, Steph’s compassion for his teammates, h is joy in life, his joy for celebrating everybody else’s accomplishments is so powerful. But without Draymond’s competitive edge and fight, I don’t think we win all those championships. They were the perfect complement to each other. The n we had Andre Iguodala, Klay Thompson. When Kevin [Durant] got here, our talent level went to a different level—different planet, really. And I think that the team that won in ’17-18 was as good as or better than any team in the history of the game. 他是一位不可思議的領袖。Michael 本身也是一位不可思議的領袖，但方式完全不同。我的 意思是，Steph 對隊友的同理心、他對生活的喜悅、他為別人成功而感到開心的那種喜悅， 力量非常強大。但如果沒有 Draymond 的競爭心與拚勁，我不認為我們能贏下那些冠軍。他 們兩個是完美互補。接著我們還有 Andre Iguodala、Klay Thompson。當 Kevin Durant 加 入時，我們的天賦直接提升到另一個層級——真的像是另一個星球。我認為 2017-18 年奪 冠的那支球隊，是史上最強或至少與史上最強並列。 You’ve also coached the U.S. men’s Olympic team. Celtics fans want to know why you didn’t really play Jayson Tatum, one of the league’s superstars, in the 2 024 Olympics. You said that it was a “math problem.” What did you mean? 你也曾執教美國男籃奧運隊。波士頓塞爾提克球迷想知道，為什麼你在 2024 年奧運幾乎沒 有讓聯盟超級球星之一的 Jayson Tatum 上場。你說那是個「數學問題」，是什麼意思？ We had LeBron James and Kevin Durant ahead of him. Both guys had incredible F.I. B.A. experience. They’re two of the greatest players of all time. Jayson happen ed to be playing the same position as them. If I had just said, “I'm going to p lay the best five guys” or whatever, then, yeah, Jayson’s probably out there. But you’re trying to put together a team. And so, ironically, the guys I played ahead of him were also Boston Celtics: Derrick White and Jrue Holiday. We neede d guys who were on-ball defenders, facilitators, who would make Steph and LeBron and Kevin better. Jayson wasn’t really suited for that role as well as those o ther guys. And that’s the whole point of U.S.A. Basketball: take twelve of the best players on earth and try to make it work. 我們在他前面有 LeBron James 和 Kevin Durant。這兩個人都有非常豐富的FIBA經驗。他 們是史上最偉大的球員之一。Jayson 剛好打的是和他們相同的位置。如果只是說「我要上 最強的五個人」，那麼對，Jayson 很可能會在場上。但你是在組建一支球隊。有點諷刺的 是，我在他之前上場的球員也是波士頓塞爾提克的 Derrick White 和 Jrue Holiday。我們 需要的是能防守持球者、能串聯、能讓 Steph、LeBron 和 Kevin 更好的球員。Jayson 並 不如那些球員適合這樣的角色。而這正是美國籃球的重點：把地球上最好的十二個球員集合 起來，然後讓它運作起來。 The conspiracy theorists claim you were trying to foment discord among the Celti cs. 陰謀論者說你是在刻意製造塞爾提克內部的不和。 Yeah. The 2020 election was rigged, too. 對啊，2020 年選舉也是被操控的。 Good segue. You’ve been refreshingly outspoken on politics over the years. The day after Trump’s first election, in 2016, you delivered what you called a “ra nt” at a Warriors press conference, describing your disgust and disappointment in the result. 這個轉得不錯。多年來你在政治議題上直言不諱，令人耳目一新。2016 年 Trump 首次當選 隔天，你在金州勇士隊的記者會上發表了一段你稱為「抱怨」的發言，表達你對結果的厭惡 與失望。 He was establishing this new tone of communication that we were going to have in this country. I was so disgusted that I didn’t hold back. I’ve learned that I need to be better in terms of representing our organization in a way that I cou ld still let my feelings be known but not get too personal. I’m representing a large group of people. 他正在建立一種我們這個國家未來會採用的新溝通語氣。我當時太反感了，所以沒有保留。 我後來學到，我需要在代表球隊時做得更好，可以表達自己的感受，但不要變得太個人化。 因為我代表的是一大群人。 Are you referring to when you called him a “blowhard” who was “ill-suited” t o the office? 你是指你曾稱他為「愛吹牛的人」且「不適合擔任總統」那次嗎？ “Buffoon,” I think. What really got me was the debates with Hillary [Clinton], where he stalked her from behind. It was so shocking. And there was a live audi ence that reminded me of “The Jerry Springer Show” or something. 我想是「小丑」吧。真正讓我受不了的是他和 Hillary Clinton 的辯論，他在後面跟著她 走來走去。那真的很令人震驚。而且現場觀眾讓我想到《The Jerry Springer Show》之類 的節目。 Foreshadowing. 某種預兆。 In my life, up until that time, there had been a sense of decorum expected in th e Presidential campaigns. When McCain ran against Obama, there was a town hall a nd someone said to McCain, “Obama is a terrible man.” And he said, “No, he’s a fine man.” That was what I grew up with. Reagan and Tip O’Neill got togethe r every week—Democratic Speaker of the House, Republican President—knowing the y had to collaborate to get stuff done. There was a sense of decency, that peopl e were watching, that we wanted our politics to embody a certain dignity, regard less of policy, and regardless of even corruption. Nixon gets impeached and both parties agree we can’t have this. We lost that. And I don’t think it’s all T rump’s fault. I think it was happening before Trump: the forces in social media , the forces in our country, the division. 在我人生中，在那之前，總統選舉一直都有一種應有的禮儀。當 McCain 對上 Obama 時， 有一場市民大會，有人對 McCain 說：「Obama 是個糟糕的人。」他回答：「不，他是個好 人。」這才是我成長的環境。Reagan 和 Tip O’Neill 每週都會見面——民主黨眾議院議 長與共和黨總統——因為他們知道必須合作才能做成事情。那時有一種體面感，人們在看， 我們希望政治能展現某種尊嚴，不論政策如何，甚至不論是否存在貪腐。Nixon 被彈劾時， 兩黨都同意這種事不能接受。我們失去了這些。我不認為全都是 Trump 的錯，我認為在他 之前就已經發生了：社群媒體的力量、國內的力量、分裂。 He’s a symptom, in other words? 換句話說，他只是症狀？ Yeah, but he definitely has taken advantage of that to gain and to consolidate p ower. And he’s using it to drive a wedge between all of us. He’s not the only one who’s done that, but he’s the President. He’s got the most power. But cal ling the President a buffoon, I kind of regret that, even though I felt it in my heart. It’s better to point out policy decisions, but also American values. Wh at’s wrong with the things that he does. 對，但他確實利用了這種情況來獲取並鞏固權力。他用這種方式在我們之間製造裂痕。這麼 做的人不只他，但他是總統，擁有最大的權力。不過稱總統為小丑，我有點後悔，雖然那是 我內心的真實感受。更好的做法是指出政策問題，以及美國的價值觀，指出他做的事情哪裡 有問題。 In 2019, Trump called you a “scared” “little boy.” He was referring to your choice not to comment on the N.B.A.’s reprimand of Rockets general manager Dary l Morey’s tweet in support of anti-government protesters in Hong Kong. Obviousl y, Trump relished what he perceived to be hypocrisy on the part of both the N.B. A. broadly, as a purported supporter of free speech and social justice, and you specifically, as one of the freest speakers in the league. You’d declined to ge t involved in the conflict, citing a lack of information on the issue. How do yo u feel about that stance now? 2019 年，Trump 稱你為「害怕的」「小男孩」。他指的是你沒有對 NBA 對休士頓火箭隊總 管 Daryl Morey 支持香港反政府抗議者的推文所做的懲處發表評論。顯然，Trump 很享受 他認為的矛盾——無論是 NBA 作為言論自由與社會正義的支持者，還是你作為聯盟中最敢 發言的人之一。你當時以對議題了解不足為由拒絕介入。現在你怎麼看那個立場？ I gave a really weak answer. I was trying to walk the line. 我給了一個非常軟弱的回答。我試圖走鋼索。 You regret that? 你後悔嗎？ Yeah. I was wrong. We had a lot of players on our team that were doing business in China. A lot of our players would go there off-season. The N.B.A. had this hu ge relationship with China. But, of course, thousands of American companies had trade and relations with China. And so the N.B.A. just got caught up in all of t his and I didn’t handle it well. I was trying to walk the company line and not make the N.B.A. mad. 是的，我錯了。我們隊上有很多球員在中國有商業活動，很多球員會在休賽季去那裡。NBA 與中國有非常龐大的關係。但當然，成千上萬的美國公司也和中國有貿易往來。所以 NBA 只是捲入其中，而我沒有處理好。我試圖遵循公司的立場，不讓 NBA 不高興。 I remember seeing your remarks after the Uvalde school shootings, in 2022, durin g the Western Conference finals—in which you said that our country is held host age by senators unwilling to vote for widely popular and commonsense gun reform —and thinking, first, this is what informed and impassioned advocacy looks like , and, second, that you had a future in politics if you wanted one. 我記得在 2022 年西區決賽期間，在 Uvalde 校園槍擊案之後看到你的發言——你說我們的 國家被那些不願對廣受支持且合乎常識的槍枝改革投票的參議員挾持——我當時想，第一， 這才是有資訊、有熱情的倡議；第二，如果你願意，你在政治上會有未來。 Well, that’s flattering and I appreciate it. I don’t have any desire to go int o politics. I love basketball. This is my world. All of my friends and my people are in this world. And whether I keep coaching the Warriors or not, I imagine I ’ll be involved in basketball. 謝謝你的讚美，我很感激。但我沒有從政的打算。我熱愛籃球，這是我的世界。我所有的朋 友和人脈都在這裡。不論我是否繼續執教金州勇士隊，我都會繼續與籃球有關。 Beyond gun violence, what are you most concerned about in today’s America? 除了槍枝暴力之外，你對當今美國最擔心的是什麼？ When I finished college almost forty years ago, if you went to school and got a degree, you could get a job and you could buy a house. Now that’s out of reach for most people between student debt and home prices and the economy slanted tow ard the very, very top one per cent. We don’t really have a middle class, and w e don’t have what used to represent the American Dream, which was: you can do b etter than your parents. We’re going backward on all that. Our family is lucky. I’m in a position where my family can live well. But there are millions of peo ple out there, young people who are looking at the horizon and saying, “I did e verything I was told I needed to do, and I can’t buy a house, and I can’t chas e my dream.” Think about what that means for the stability of communities and c ities and a whole country. 將近四十年前我大學畢業時，只要你上學拿到學位，就能找到工作，也能買房。現在，在學 貸、房價以及經濟偏向最頂端 1% 的情況下，這對大多數人來說已經難以實現。我們幾乎沒 有中產階級，也失去了過去所代表的美國夢——也就是你可以過得比父母更好。我們在這方 面正在倒退。我們家很幸運，我有能力讓家人過得很好。但有數百萬年輕人望向未來時會說 ：「我做了所有被要求做的事，但我買不起房，也追不了夢。」想想這對社區、城市乃至整 個國家的穩定意味著什麼。 Meanwhile, thanks to huge media deals, global expansion, and sponsorship, the N. B.A. is more profitable and valuable than ever. The average team is now worth fo ur to five billion dollars, with the Warriors valued at around twice that. Baske tball has become the third most popular global sport— 與此同時，拜龐大的媒體轉播合約、全球擴張以及贊助所賜，NBA 比以往任何時候都更賺錢 、更有價值。現在每支球隊的平均價值約為 40 到 50 億美元，而金州勇士隊的估值大約是 其兩倍。籃球已成為全球第三受歡迎的運動—— What’s second? 第二名是什麼？ Cricket. 板球。 O.K. Yeah. Soccer, cricket, basketball. The number of people in India and Pakist an. 好吧，對。足球、板球、籃球。畢竟印度和巴基斯坦的人口很多。 And Steph Curry’s face is probably more recognizable than that of every U.S. se nator, and maybe the Vice-President. 而 Steph Curry 的臉，可能比所有美國參議員，甚至副總統還更容易被認出。 I agree. 我同意。 All of which is great news for Adam Silver and everyone else pulling a paycheck from the league. But I want to ask you about some macro challenges facing the N. B.A., starting with injuries. 這些對 Adam Silver 以及所有從聯盟領薪的人來說都是好消息。但我想問一些 NBA 面臨的 宏觀挑戰，先從傷病開始。 Since the 2019-20 season, the top thirty or so highest-paid players have missed between a quarter and a third of games. For most or all of this season, Giannis, Jimmy, Tatum, Lillard, Irving, Embiid, Haliburton, Anthony Davis, and Jalen Wil liams have been sidelined. What can be done? 自 2019-20 賽季以來，薪資最高的約三十名球員缺席了四分之一到三分之一的比賽。本賽 季大部分或整季時間，Giannis、Jimmy、Tatum、Lillard、Irving、Embiid、Haliburton、 Anthony Davis 和 Jalen Williams 都因傷缺陣。可以怎麼改善？ I think we need to play fewer games. I don’t think that’s going to happen, bec ause fewer games is less revenue and you’d have to have everybody agree—player s, coaches, management, some of the investment banks that are funding some of th e teams—and the purchase prices of these franchises now is so out of control th at you’ve got billions of dollars at stake, and nobody who’s counting the bean s wants to shorten the season. But I think we make a ton of money already, and I think we really need to be concerned about the product. We could shave some gam es off the schedule, which would allow for more rest, more practice. 我認為我們需要減少比賽場數。我不覺得這會發生，因為場數減少代表收入變少，而且你必 須讓所有人同意——球員、教練、管理層，甚至資助部分球隊的投資銀行——而現在這些球 隊的收購價格已經失控，牽涉數十億美元的利益，沒有人願意減少賽季長度。但我認為我們 已經賺很多錢了，我們應該更重視產品本身。我們可以減少一些賽程，讓球員有更多休息和 訓練時間。 How many? 減多少？ I’d say ten. Talking with people who have really researched it, you can do ten, and what that would do for player health. . . . The old N.B.A. fans go, “Well, yeah, but we’ve been playing eighty-two games forever!” But we have the data now that shows the players are running faster and farther than ever before by dr amatic margins because of the three-point shot, because teams crash the offensiv e glass now instead of just turning and running back. Because of the pace, becau se of analytics, we’ve learned that the quicker you can get a shot up, the more efficient your offense is. In the old days, they used to tell us the exact oppo site. What we’ve learned is that the later you go, the worse your efficiency be comes. With all the athleticism, all the switching now, you just want to push th e ball ahead before the defense can get set, too. But what that means is that we ’re playing faster and the players are being pushed to further extremes. So you throw all this stuff into the hopper. Eighty-two games is too many— 我會說減十場。和真正研究過的人討論後，減十場對球員健康會有很大幫助……老一輩 NBA 球迷會說：「但我們一直都是打 82 場啊！」但現在數據顯示，球員跑得比以前更快、更 遠，差距非常大，這是因為三分球、因為球隊現在會衝搶進攻籃板，而不是直接退防。也因 為節奏與數據分析，我們知道越快出手，進攻效率越高。以前教練教的是完全相反的觀念。 現在我們學到的是，拖越晚出手，效率越差。在現在這種運動能力與大量換防的情況下，你 只想在防守還沒站穩前快速推進。但這也意味著比賽變得更快，球員負荷被推向更極端。綜 合這些因素，82 場真的太多了—— So this isn’t about you wanting to put out of reach your record of seventy-thre e wins in a season— 所以這不是因為你想讓單季 73 勝紀錄更難被打破—— I don’t think anybody’s ever beating that. [Laughs.] To get back to how we’re looking at things: I have great faith in Adam [Silver], and the league is fille d with great people, but our problems are so exposed now and out in the open for everybody to comment on. I don’t envy Adam’s job. 我不覺得有人能打破那個紀錄（笑）。回到整體來看，我對 Adam Silver 很有信心，聯盟 裡也有很多優秀的人，但我們的問題現在都被攤在陽光下，所有人都可以評論。我不羨慕 A dam 的工作。 There’s also tanking: teams unlikely to make the playoffs are doing all they ca n to lose in order to have the best chance to get a high draft pick. 還有「擺爛」問題：那些不太可能打進季後賽的球隊，會盡一切可能輸球，以提高拿到高順 位選秀權的機率。 Yeah. It’s been especially apparent this year because the draft is really good. It hasn’t been as noticeable in past years, but it’s definitely a thing. 對。今年特別明顯，因為選秀大年。過去幾年沒那麼明顯，但這確實存在。 I’ve heard various remedies proposed. Are you partial to any? 我聽過各種解法，你有偏好的嗎？ The solutions are you sort of make an even playing field. Flatten the odds. Or e ven penalizing teams for losing: If you’re in the worst three spots, you can’t get the first pick. But whatever we do—and it’s not really for me to sit here and say, “Here’s the solution,” because it’s way too complex for that—but whatever the league does, we just have to insure our fans that they’re going to get the best competition night in and night out. I’m watching some of these pl ayoff games right now. They’re incredible. Incredible. We have such a great spo rt. We have such a great product. But we’ve got to do everything possible to ma ke sure that the quality of the product throughout the regular season is at its peak. And I think we, like all businesses, are at risk of weakening the product and making it less popular. 解法大概是讓環境更公平，比如拉平抽籤機率，或者甚至懲罰輸球：如果你是倒數前三名， 就不能拿到狀元籤。但不論怎麼做——這問題太複雜，不是我能在這裡直接給答案——無論 聯盟怎麼決定，我們都必須確保球迷每天都能看到最好的競爭。我現在在看一些季後賽，比 賽非常精彩，非常精彩。我們擁有一項很棒的運動，很棒的產品。但我們必須盡一切努力確 保例行賽整體品質維持在最高水準。我認為我們和所有產業一樣，都有產品變弱、變不受歡 迎的風險。 You mentioned the strong draft class. Can you talk about the challenge of drafti ng well? 你提到選秀大年，可以談談選秀困難在哪嗎？ You can’t predict a guy’s personality. You can try. Our front office does thes e personality tests, we sit down and have lunch with them—but you don’t really know. You can’t. And you ask people, you ask their trainer, you ask their team mates, you do all kinds of background. But you always get to a point in the draf t where you’re, like, “Should we take the safe guy who doesn’t have much of a ceiling or should we take this other guy despite the fact that he’s got some r ed flags?” Jerry West used to say, “If you’re right forty per cent of the tim e, you’re doing great.” 你無法預測一個人的性格。你可以試著去做。我們的管理層會做性格測試，也會和他們吃飯 聊天，但你其實不會真的知道。你會問很多人，問他的訓練師、隊友，做各種背景調查。但 選秀時總會遇到一個點，你會想：「我要選那個穩定但上限不高的人，還是選這個有一些風 險但潛力更高的人？」Jerry West 曾說：「如果你有 40% 的命中率，就已經很厲害了。」 Is doping a threat to the N.B.A.’s product, too? 毒品（禁藥）對NBA的整體產品也構成威脅嗎？ Well, there is testing. There have been guys even this year who have been suspen ded for multiple games for testing positive for some illegal substance. I litera lly have never seen a teammate or one of our players, never known anything. I th ink it probably happens in the N.B.A., but I think it’s exceedingly rare. 有檢測制度。今年甚至就有球員因為藥檢呈陽性而被禁賽多場。我個人從未見過隊友或我們 隊上的球員有這種情況，也從來不知道任何相關事情。我認為NBA裡可能會發生這種事，但 我覺得極為罕見。 Henry Abbott, at the TrueHoop network, has reported how a number of N.B.A. owner s had meaningful ties to Jeffrey Epstein and his financial network—specifically to Apollo Global Management, whose co-founder Leon Black paid Epstein at least a hundred and fifty-eight million dollars. Other Apollo co-founders include owne rs of the Philadelphia 76ers and the Atlanta Hawks, and Adam Silver’s college r oommate is currently Apollo’s president. Do you think that fans should be troub led by this reporting? TrueHoop的Henry Abbott報導過，許多NBA球隊老闆與Jeffrey Epstein及其金融網絡有重要 關聯——特別是Apollo Global Management，其共同創辦人Leon Black至少支付給Epstein 一億五千八百萬美元。其他Apollo共同創辦人還包括費城76人隊與亞特蘭大老鷹隊的擁有者 ，而NBA總裁Adam Silver的大學室友目前是Apollo的總裁。你認為球迷應該對這些報導感到 擔憂嗎？ This is modern life, right? It’s, like, you can dig into stuff and it might be meaningful and it might be way over the top. I mean, I think the same thing is t rue in business. I don’t think that every single person who had anything to do with Jeffrey Epstein should lose their job and have to sell their company. But i f they had illegal dealings and illicit knowledge of what was happening and didn ’t do anything about it, that’s a different story. But I wouldn’t know the fi rst way how to differentiate that. I don’t follow that story very carefully. So what you’re telling me right now is actually news to me. I didn’t know there were any N.B.A. people who had ties. 這就是現代生活，對吧？很多事情你可以深挖，它可能有意義，也可能被過度解讀。我覺得 商業世界也是一樣。我不認為每一個和Jeffrey Epstein有過任何關聯的人，都應該失去工 作或被迫賣掉公司。但如果他們涉及非法交易、或明知發生什麼卻沒有採取行動，那就是另 一回事。不過我其實也不知道該如何判斷這之間的差異。我沒有很仔細追這個事件。所以你 現在跟我說的，其實對我來說是新聞。我不知道NBA有人跟這件事有關聯。 There’s an owner whose name’s in there hundreds of times. Of course, as you sa y, there are also people whose names are in the files incidentally. 有一位球隊老闆的名字出現在文件中數百次。當然，如你所說，也有一些人只是偶然被提及 在文件裡。 There has to be a distinction. But I also think that we’ve gotten so far away f rom what actually matters, and that’s the victims and what can we do to insure that this kind of thing doesn’t happen. 必須要做出區分。但我也覺得我們已經離真正重要的事情太遠了，那就是受害者，以及我們 能做什麼來確保這種事情不再發生。 I ask because you’re generally quite well informed on things related to basketb all. 我之所以問，是因為你通常對籃球相關的事情非常了解。 I’m not well informed on this. 但這件事我並不了解。 On a lighter note, I wrote a few years ago about the idea of adding a four-point er to the game. Reggie Miller was opposed, but Kyle Korver and Larry Bird were o pen to it. Bird entered the league the same year the three-pointer was added, an d he made the case that it’s always evolving. 換個輕鬆點的話題，我幾年前寫過一篇關於在比賽中加入四分球的想法。Reggie Miller反 對，但Kyle Korver和Larry Bird則持開放態度。Bird進入聯盟的那一年正好是三分球被引 入的時候，他也認為籃球一直都在演變。 I would never do a four-point play. In fact, I would even consider getting rid o f the three-point line. 我絕對不會設置四分球制度。事實上，我甚至會考慮取消三分線。 As the guy who holds the all-time record for three-point percentage? Come on. 你可是三分球命中率歷史第一的人耶？別鬧了。 I just think that the game, as it was designed, is really to create the best sho ts possible. That’s why in the early days, you just throw it inside to the big guy. A three-point line came from the A.B.A., in 1979, and I think it was really effective. It makes for an exciting play, but the analytics revolution has crea ted a weird situation where we all know exactly where the highest efficiency sho ts are: layups and corner threes because the corner three is twenty-two feet and not 23.9, like the up above the break. You have this whole no man’s land betwe en those areas. So if you shoot a twenty-two-footer now from the top of the key, that’s considered a really bad shot. I just wonder—and I don’t know if this would work or not—if we got rid of the three-point line, if it would diversify the way everybody would play and create a lot of different creative solutions to basketball. 我只是覺得這項運動原本的設計，是為了創造最好的出手機會。這也是為什麼早期大家就是 把球丟進內線給大個子。三分線是1979年從ABA引入的，我覺得它非常成功，讓比賽更有觀 賞性。但數據分析革命帶來一個奇怪的現象：大家現在完全知道最高效率的投籃點在哪裡— —籃下上籃和底角三分，因為底角三分是22英尺，而不是弧頂的23.9英尺。中間出現了一整 塊「真空地帶」。所以如果你現在在弧頂投22英尺的球，會被認為是很糟的出手。我只是好 奇——我也不知道是否可行——如果我們取消三分線，是否會讓大家的打法更多元，並創造 更多不同的戰術解法。 Have you ever proposed this to anyone with power? 你有沒有跟有權力的人提過這個想法？ No, no, because it’s too out there. And plus, I coach Steph Curry, so I’d rath er wait till Steph’s retired. I think there’s great coaches, and there’s a lo t of creativity, but I wonder if the game would get more creative if we got rid of the three-point line. 沒有，因為這想法太超前了。而且我還在執教Steph Curry，所以我寧願等他退役再說。我 覺得現在已經有很多優秀教練和創意，但我在想，如果取消三分線，比賽會不會變得更有創 造力。 But less of a role for Steve Kerr-type players. 但那樣Steve Kerr這種類型的球員就會更沒那麼重要了。 Yeah, I wouldn’t make it in the N.B.A. 對，那樣我根本進不了NBA。 You have nine N.B.A. championships, from playing and coaching combined, behind P hil, Bill Russell, and Red Auerbach. Has your motivation for a tenth ring ebbed at all? Has the state of the world, your age, anything sort of changed your moti vation toward the game? 你加總球員與教練生涯已經拿下九座NBA總冠軍，僅次於Phil Jackson、Bill Russell和Red Auerbach。你對第十冠的動力有減弱嗎？世界現況、年齡或其他因素有改變你對這項運動 的動力嗎？ No, that stuff is all incredible and very much the result of good fortune in my career. I mean, I played with Michael Jordan, so I got three rings. I played wit h Tim Duncan and David Robinson: I got two more. I was on their teams and I play ed a role, but then I also gained an incredible amount of experience and knowled ge that I could bring to coaching. And then I get to coach Steph Curry and Draym ond and Klay and Andre and all these guys. And Kevin Durant. And it’s, like, “ Oh, my God, how the hell did all this happen?” So I’ve been incredibly blessed and lucky, but it’s not like I display those rings on my wall. I don’t even k now where some of them are. 沒有，這些成就都非常不可思議，而且很大程度是職業生涯中的好運。我和Michael Jordan 一起打球，所以拿了三冠；又和Tim Duncan、David Robinson一起，所以又多了兩冠。我在 那些隊伍裡扮演角色，但也累積了大量經驗與知識，能帶到教練工作裡。之後我又執教Step h Curry、Draymond、Klay、Andre Iguodala以及Kevin Durant這些人。你會覺得：「天啊 ，這一切怎麼發生的？」所以我真的非常幸運。但我並不會把那些冠軍戒指掛在牆上，有些 甚至我也不知道放在哪裡了。 When I was staying with your mom, she said, at one point, “Let me see if I can find one of these rings Steve gave me.” And she couldn’t find it. But she wasn ’t upset. She said, “Well, there’s more important things out there.” Is that your view? 我之前住在你母親那裡時，她曾說：「讓我看看能不能找到Steve給我的其中一枚戒指。」 但她找不到。不過她也沒有不高興，只是說：「外面還有更重要的事情。」你也是這樣想的 嗎？ Yes, but I also want to make sure I still have them. I believe four or five of t hem are in a safe-deposit box. And then I think three or four of them are in my drawers in my closet, honestly. But my point is I never look at them. I’m incre dibly proud of them, but it’s not what drives me. 是，但我也還是想確保它們還在。我相信有四五枚在銀行保險箱裡，另外三四枚在我衣櫃抽 屜裡。但重點是我從來不會去看它們。我對它們很驕傲，但那不是驅動我的東西。 What drives you? 是什麼驅動你？ I wake up excited to come to the gym and coach basketball and collaborate with t he staff and see the players and try to help them achieve something. That’s an amazing life. And that’s all that really matters is: Do you enjoy what you do e very day and are you fulfilled? I still am. Winning is obviously much more fun t han losing, but losing is part of it. And this year was our worst season we’ve ever had. No, I take that back: the COVID year, we had the worst record in the l eague. We lost everybody to injury and that was a rough season, but I don’t loo k at it like I’m a failure now, or I was wildly successful then, even though th at’s how everyone measures things. I’m well aware that, like Pop and Phil taug ht us, this is life. This is all part of your existence as a coach, as a human b eing, and you’re going to experience everything. And you want to help people ha ve that perspective and really embrace the things that are going to be there for them every day, which is the joy that comes from competing and the camaraderie that comes from being part of a team. And that stuff occurs even on losing teams . And it’s especially important on losing teams to make sure those things are h appening. 我每天早上醒來都很期待去球館執教籃球、和教練團隊合作、見球員、幫助他們達成一些成 就。這是一種很棒的生活。真正重要的就是：你是否喜歡每天做的事情，並且是否感到滿足 ？我現在仍然是滿足的。贏球當然比輸球快樂，但輸球也是一部分。今年是我們最差的一個 賽季。不對，我收回，那應該是疫情那年，我們戰績全聯盟最差，球員幾乎全傷，那是很艱 難的一年。但我不會因此認為自己是失敗的，或過去非常成功，因為這些只是外界的評價方 式。我很清楚，就像Pop和Phil教我們的，這就是人生。這是教練、也是人生的一部分，你 會經歷所有事情。你要幫助別人擁有這種視角，去珍惜每天存在的東西，也就是競爭的快樂 與團隊的情誼，即使在輸球的球隊裡也存在，而這在輸球時尤其重要。 You sound like a guy who wants to come back, and if it’s your choice, then you would. 你聽起來像是想繼續留下來的人，如果由你決定，你會回來。 This is a really interesting situation, and I’m very respectful of the organiza tion and their place in the universe right now. And I know how this stuff works. Most coaching runs just last a certain amount of time, and then it’s best for everybody to move forward. And what we have to figure out is whether now is that time, because what complicates it is we still have Steph and Draymond. 這是一個很有意思的情況，我非常尊重球隊目前所處的位置，也知道這些事情的運作方式。 大多數教練的任期都有一定時間，之後對大家來說繼續前進是最好的。但我們要決定現在是 不是那個時間點，因為問題在於我們還有Steph和Draymond。 For another year, right? 還有一年合約，對吧？ Yeah, another year each on their contracts. And I don’t want to abandon those g uys. If Steph and Draymond were retiring this year, I think this would be an eas y decision: we all go out together and the organization takes their new path. Bu t it’s not that easy because I think Steph’s going to play another couple of y ears and I think we can still do some good things together. But these are all co nversations that will happen in the next week or two and we’ll figure it out. A nd whatever happens, it’s going to end well. I know that, because it’s too imp ortant not to. 對，他們各自還有一年合約。我不想離開他們。如果Steph和Draymond今年退役，那會很簡 單：大家一起結束，球隊進入新階段。但現在沒那麼容易，因為我覺得Steph還會再打幾年 ，我們也還能一起完成一些事。不過這些都會在接下來一兩週內討論清楚。無論結果如何， 都會是好的結局，我很確定，因為這件事太重要了，不可能不有好的收場。 - 好長。。。 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 49.216.131.63 (臺灣) ※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/NBA/M.1777272904.A.48E.html