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阿銀實際的回應 其實跟這篇立場差蠻多的 https://reurl.cc/LnLZq9 As Adam Silver flexes go, this was about as bold as it gets. 就 Adam Silver 的強硬程度來說,這已經算是非常大膽的一次了。 The 63-year-old NBA commissioner who came up under the fire-breathing David Stern, and who has chosen diplomacy over dictatorship since taking over in 2014, doesn’t typically stick his chest out when discussing such matters of governance. 這位63歲的 NBA 總裁,是在烈火般嚴厲的David Stern底下成長起來的,但自2014年接任 以來,他選擇的多是外交手腕,而不是獨裁手段。通常在談到治理相關議題時,他並不會 擺出強硬姿態。 But during the Wednesday news conference in which he addressed the LA Clippers saga for the first time, discussing the salary cap circumvention accusations that were revealed a week before by the “Pablo Torre Finds Out podcast,” he was asked to explain the scope of his power as it related to the penalties that might ultimately be levied here. 但在週三的記者會上,當他首次公開談及洛杉磯快艇的事件時,卻被問到對於可能最終祭 出的懲罰,他手上究竟掌握多大權力。 Silver’s skeptics within the league, the ones who surely doubt whether he’ ll bring the hammer here if it’s warranted, might have assumed that he would duck the question entirely. And they would have been wrong. 在聯盟內部,那些懷疑Silver是否會真的"重拳出擊"的人,或許原本以為他會迴避這個問 題,但他並沒有。 “My powers are very broad,” Silver said in response to the question from Vincent Goodwill of Yahoo! Sports. “The full range of financial penalties: Draft picks (seized), suspensions, etc. I have very broad powers in these situations.” "我的權力非常廣泛,"Silver 回應Yahoo Sports的Vincent Goodwill問題時說道。"包括 全面的財務懲罰:沒收選秀權、禁賽等等。我在這些情況下擁有非常廣泛的權力。" In terms of setting a tough tone at the start of this process, and making it crystal clear that he’ll do what’s necessary if the evidence demands it, this was the sort of signal that needed to be sent. While Silver made it clear throughout that he’s “a big believer in due process and fairness,” all while referencing the importance of the independent investigation that will be conducted by Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz, it was still something to see him highlight the reach of his role in such an unapologetic way. And considering the mixed-emotions response that is so prevalent around the league, with some owners already pushing for severe punishments and others advocating for more restraint, this is the line he’ll have to walk in these coming weeks and (likely) months. 就樹立強硬基調而言,Silver的這番話是必要的訊號,表明若有證據,他會採取行動。當 然,他同時也強調自己"非常相信正當程序與公平",並提及由Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz所進行的獨立調查的重要性。但即便如此,他仍不避諱強調自己權力的廣度。這一點 尤其關鍵,因為目前聯盟內的反應分歧,有些老闆呼籲嚴懲,有些則希望保守,Silver必 須在接下來這幾個禮拜甚至數月中在這條路上拿捏平衡。 As Silver knows better than anyone, this sticky situation poses a serious risk to consumer faith in the Association. That was surely the message that came his way from the long line of owners who, according to league sources, called him to express their concerns in the days after all these sordid facts were revealed. Silver非常清楚,這場風波對球迷對聯盟的信任構成了嚴重風險。據消息人士透露,他在 事件曝光後接到多位球隊老闆來電,表達憂慮。 “What’s being said to me (by owners) is a reservation of judgment,” Silver insisted when asked about the mood of the Board of Governors’ room on this topic. “People recognize that that’s what you have a league office for. That ’s what you have a commissioner for, someone who is independent of the teams. "(老闆們)對我說的態度是保留判斷,"Silver在談到董事會氛圍時說道。"大家認為這正是 聯盟辦公室存在的意義,這正是總裁的角色,要獨立於各隊之外。" “On one hand, of course, I work collectively for the 30 governors, but I have an independent obligation to be the steward of the brand and the integrity of this league. …I cut off any further conversations (with owners) and said, you know, let’s all withhold judgment. Let’s do this investigation, and then we’ll come back to you in terms of our findings.” "一方面,當然我與 30 位球隊老闆是共同合作的。但另一方面,我也有獨立的責任,要作 為這個聯盟品牌與誠信的守護者。......我已經中止了與老闆們的進一步對話,並告訴他 們,大家暫時保留判斷。我們先完成這項調查,之後再回來向你們彙報我們的發現。" The notion of a man of Ballmer’s wealth — $153 billion; most in professional sports and top 10 on the planet — being able to procure and retain elite talent through surreptitious ways is the worst nightmare for fans of the league’s other 29 teams. More specifically, it undermines the very ethos of the strict salary-cap system that is, in essence, a hard cap intended to level the playing field and get the NBA that much closer to the NFL’s competitive model that has worked so well. 對於其他29隊球迷而言,身價高達153B、星球上前十有錢的人、是體育界最富有的老闆 Steve Ballmer若能以暗箱操作方式挖角並留住頂尖球星,那就是最糟糕的夢魘。這不僅破 壞了嚴格薪資上限制度的公平性,也動搖了NBA想要仿效NFL競爭模式的核心精神。 So no, it’s not a crucial consideration that Ballmer is the anti-Donald Sterling: Widely respected among his peers, willing to help build the league’ s brand all along the way, and known to be among the owners that Silver leaned on the most from a leadership standpoint. Case in point, Ballmer has long held a position as the league’s audit committee chair on the Board of Governors and, per a source with knowledge of the situation, remains in that role. 所以,不,Ballmer是不是Donald Sterling的對立面這件事情並不應該被考慮到:受同行尊 敬、願意協助推動聯盟品牌且擔任Silver作為領導者最仰仗的人之一。Ballmer長期在董事 會審計委員會中扮演關鍵角色且現在仍在那個位置上。 “They love Ballmer,” one high-ranking team executive said. "他們很愛Ballmer,"一名球隊高管表示。 It also shouldn’t matter that All-Star weekend is at Ballmer’s personally-financed building, the Clippers’ Intuit Dome, in February, inconvenient and uncomfortable though that might be (among those who believe Silver won’t come down hard on the Clippers, this political factor is popular to highlight). The only thing that truly matters, and which simply must be established by the time the investigation is done, is whether Ballmer or any Clippers officials knowingly played a part in these deals that filled Leonard’s pockets. 全明星週末在Ballmer親自出資的快艇主場Intuit Dome舉辦,這件事也不應該成為被考量 的因素,雖然這可能會讓情況變得尷尬(在那些認為Silver不會嚴厲懲處快艇的人當中,這 種政治性因素常被拿來強調)。唯一真正重要的,並且必須在調查結束前釐清的問題,是 Ballmer或任何快艇高層是否明知並參與了那些讓Leonard荷包滿滿的交易。 Is Ballmer’s claim that he was “conned” by the Aspiration company that he invested $50 million with, did a 23-year, $300 million arena sponsorship deal with, and which turned out to be fraudulent, true? Was Leonard’s infamous uncle and lead representative, Dennis Robertson, possibly acting on his own when he orchestrated the two no-show endorsement agreements with Aspiration that combined for a total ($48 million, which is curiously close to the amount of Ballmer’s investment)? It could certainly help the Clippers’ cause if Robertson decided to back Ballmer’s defense with a public statement of his own, but he is proving to be just as quiet publicly as his understated nephew during this tumultuous time. Ballmer聲稱自己被Aspiration欺騙,他自己回頭投資50M至與快艇簽下23年300M贊助合約 的Aspiration而最終這成了一樁詐騙這是否屬實?Leonard惡名昭彰的舅舅同時也是他的頭 號代表Dennis Robertson可能自己與Aspiration簽下了2份不用出席的贊助合約(48M並巧合 地與Ballmer的投資金額相當接近)?如果Robertson決定以公開聲明支持Ballmer的說法,確 實可能有助於快艇方面的立場;但在這段動盪時期,他在公開場合依舊和他那位一向低調 的外甥一樣沉默。 Even beyond the defiant public statements from the Clippers, including the initial messaging that these allegations were “provably false,” the private messaging has also been one of innocence and confidence. They already have all their papers in order, so to speak, because of the Department of Justice investigation that preceded this one and led to co-founder Joe Sanberg agreeing to plead guilty of defrauding investors of $248 million. If the focus of the investigation was solely on the Aspiration accusations — as opposed to the broader business relationship with Leonard that has caused backlash among stakeholders and fans alike — there has been a sense from the Clippers’ side that they should be in the clear. 即使撇開快艇隊那些強硬的公開聲明(包括最初強調這些指控"可被證明為虛假"的說法), 其內部傳達的訊息依然是無辜與充滿信心的。他們之所以顯得有備而來,部分原因在於這 起案件之前就已經有司法部的調查,而該調查最終導致共同創辦人Joe Sanberg承認詐騙投 資人248M。若這次聯盟的調查焦點僅限於Aspiration的相關指控--而不是與 Leonard 更廣 泛的商業關係(這一點已引發利益相關者和球迷的反彈)--那麼快艇方面普遍認為,他們應 該可以全身而退。 Alas, it’s not. 但事實不是這樣。 Like it or not, the Clippers know that the scope of this story goes much wider than that. It dates back to the summer of 2019, when those lavish requests from Robertson during the free agency process (and the subsequent league investigation) laid the groundwork for suspicions that never truly died. This subplot reared its head again this week, when the Toronto Star’s Bruce Arthur revealed even more details about Robertson’s requests of the Raptors that summer. 不管快艇願不願意承認,他們很清楚這件事的範圍遠遠超過Aspiration一案。這個問題可 以追溯到2019年夏天,當時Robertson在自由球員談判過程中提出過許多奢侈的要求(隨後 聯盟也進行過調查),這些要求為外界的懷疑埋下了種子,而那些懷疑從來沒有真正消失。 這個支線故事在本週再度浮出水面,因為Toronto Star的Bruce Arthur披露了更多關於 Robertson當年向暴龍提出要求的細節。 The most problematic detail, among many, was that Robertson not only told the Raptors “they needed to match at least $10 million per year in extra sponsorships income,” which would be a clear violation of the league’s collective bargaining agreement if granted, but that Leonard “didn’t want to do anything for the money.” The fact that Robertson reportedly asked for team assistance to pursue no-show endorsement deals at that time, only to find them later with Aspiration during Leonard’s Clippers tenure, sets the kind of backdrop that only hurts their case at the moment. As an aside, a Lakers team source said Robertson did not request no-show endorsement deals in his free agency discussions with their team (he did, among other audacious things, ask for a specific amount of off-court endorsement money that could be promised in advance). 在眾多細節當中,最具爭議的一點是Robertson不僅告訴暴龍"他們必須至少每年額外提供 10M的贊助收入",而且還補充說Leonard"並不想為了這些錢做任何事"。如果這種要求真的 被滿足,將會是對聯盟勞資協議的明顯違反。更糟的是,據報導Robertson當時甚至要求球 隊協助尋找"掛名卻不用實際履行"的代言合約,而這樣的情況最終真的在Leonard效力快艇 期間透過Aspiration出現。這種前後呼應的背景,只會讓快艇眼下的處境更不利。作為補 充,有一位Lakers的消息人士表示,在Robertson與他們的自由球員談判中,並沒有提出 過"掛名代言"的要求(雖然他確實提出過其他大膽的條件,例如事先承諾一定數額的場外 代言收入)。 So, will Silver wind up exercising all that power he has in his employ? We won ’t know for quite some time now, more than likely. But he was the one who deemed salary cap circumvention the “cardinal sin” when complaints like these first arose six summers ago, and who has gone to such great lengths to ensure that these sorts of improprieties are litigated out of his league. He had no problem acknowledging the hammer that’s sitting right there. It’s just a matter of whether he’ll need it. “To suggest that there is a stigma around (cheating) would almost be an understatement,” Silver said. “I mean, the amount of attention that this has commanded, certainly no one out there is saying, ‘Oh, this is just business as usual in the NBA; What’s the big deal?’ …In fact, their suggestion is (that) this is highly aberrant behavior, and which is why, in response to a podcast and some additional media reports, we brought in the big guns on the investigation.” 所以,Silver會不會真的動用他手中擁有的所有權力?這點我們可能還需要相當長的一段時 間才能知道。但可以肯定的是,當六年前第一次出現類似的投訴時,他就已經把規避薪資 上限視為"最嚴重的原罪",並竭盡全力確保這類不當行為能被清除出NBA。 他完全不避諱承認"大錘子"就擺在那裡,問題只是他是否需要動用。 Silver說:"要說(作弊)存在污名化,這麼說甚至還算輕描淡寫。我是說,這件事所引發 的關注程度,沒有任何人會說:'喔,這在 NBA 就只是照常營業,有什麼大不了的?'...... 事實上,大家的看法是這是極度反常的行為,這也是為什麼在一個podcast以及一些額外的 媒體報導之後,我們才會出動重量級力量來展開調查。" -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 104.176.138.216 (美國) ※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/NBA/M.1757558502.A.B36.html
kevin77605 : 嗯。重罰100萬,扣幾個二輪籤,結束 09/11 10:44
kase09521 : 兩篇翻起來的感覺也差太多了吧,笑死 09/11 10:46
thindust : 猜可愛禁賽半季(剛好給他養傷) 09/11 10:46
EZ78 : 因為今天記者會火力全在這 上一篇只取一小段 09/11 10:46
EZ78 : 反正阿銀整體的態度比較像等調查結果出來再說 09/11 10:48
cysticercus : 我覺得兩段不衝突 這很嚴重 我權力很大不會姑息 09/11 10:50
cysticercus : 但要有明確證據我才會動 09/11 10:50
bleachdie : 我的感覺就是阿銀在表達:我能重懲,平常給你們這 09/11 10:51
bleachdie : 些老闆太方便是不是?順便敲山震虎一下 09/11 10:51
Landius : 就等結果,但吃瓜的等不及 09/11 10:51
bleachdie : 快艇就在調查,順便提醒其他29隊 09/11 10:51
EZ78 : 不衝突阿 是上一篇只擷取一小段就擴大解釋了 09/11 10:52
TheoEpstein : 這篇比較接近事實 09/11 10:53
gundam01 : 阿銀找了大律師事務所 等他們查完才會有懲處 09/11 10:54
cross980115 : NBA御用等級的名事務所 09/11 10:55
cross980115 : 前幾次都有確實查到詳細東西 09/11 10:55
aoka : 如果沒懲罰,以後所有大牌都能私下要求塞錢了 09/11 10:56
cross980115 : 而且會查得很詳細 09/11 10:56
gundam01 : 前幾個老闆被趕走的好像也是找這間查 09/11 10:56
※ 編輯: EZ78 (104.176.138.216 美國), 09/11/2025 10:57:29
magamanzero : 這片立場又不一樣了 到底哪個是真實的阿銀呢 09/11 10:57
EZ78 : 現在的問題是 他們調查的動作很慢 前兩次都花了1年 09/11 10:58
EZ78 : 左右 09/11 10:58
EZ78 : 這次明顯比較緊急 查一年Kawhi都要變成到期約了 09/11 10:58
cross980115 : 沙佛那個連幾次N字 幾次露鳥都給你查出來 09/11 10:59
magamanzero : 看其他球隊老闆願不願意接受吧 09/11 10:59
cysticercus : 故事如果發展成 一年後確認證據罰N籤取消合約 09/11 11:00
cysticercus : 但是彼時快艇奪冠了 就有趣了XDD 09/11 11:00
chinhan1216 : 就等調查啊 我相信真的要下屠刀阿銀會動的 09/11 11:01
samsam80821 : 他需要有明確的東西才能懲處 不然直接弄下去也會很 09/11 11:02
samsam80821 : 麻煩 09/11 11:02
samsam80821 : 證據還是重要的 09/11 11:03
chinhan1216 : 不然現在就要扣下可愛讓快艇開季嗎 09/11 11:03
cysticercus : 而且各老闆表達擔憂不是憤怒 之後畫個紅線就搞定了 09/11 11:04
f77928 : Sterling和Sarver的案例跟這次不太一樣 風向很微妙 09/11 11:05
f77928 : 否則涉及公平性的爭議老闆們不可能這麼安靜 09/11 11:05
furjai : 先讓快艇打看情況吧 然後上裁判 真的不妙再把可愛 09/11 11:05
samsam80821 : 如果真的沒證據就弄下去 吃瓜的爽了 但之後就微妙 09/11 11:05
furjai : 變不見 反正快艇是反派怎麼弄他也不為過 09/11 11:05
samsam80821 : 了 會被質疑的 09/11 11:06
Hettt5655 : 阿銀:老虎不發威 當我是小貓 09/11 11:06
zore14563 : 就需要直接證據才會開鍘的意思 09/11 11:06
samsam80821 : 以後的標準會很難界定 09/11 11:07
samsam80821 : 反正等調查吧 大律師都出動了 09/11 11:08
Kshatri : 把餅做小的老闆,跟把餅做大的老闆,咖位是不一樣 09/11 11:20
Kshatri : 的;你以為的公平正義,不適用在商業聯盟。這件事 09/11 11:20
Kshatri : 如果發生在摳門老闆身上,相信處置會更快,但是沒 09/11 11:20
Kshatri : 幾個球隊老闆願意掏錢到平地蓋球場這種程度,隨著 09/11 11:20
Kshatri : 時間拉長,對快艇越有利 09/11 11:20
EZ78 : Sarver跟Sterling處置都花了一整年 你在說啥 09/11 11:20
chenlansue : 美國就是無罪推論 不是未審先判呀 09/11 11:25
Aretimis7345: 簡單來說 他有權力嚴懲 但是目前還在調查中 09/11 11:25
Aretimis7345: 等調查結果出來再決定 畢竟權力很大 09/11 11:26
chenlansue : 等官方調查結果 而不是看記者辦案 09/11 11:26
whrth2002 : 支持應該要有一個完整的調查。 09/11 11:28
samsam80821 : 要師出有名啊 09/11 11:37
samsam80821 : 不然只是一時爽而已 09/11 11:37
Amilous : 調查結果請至少要能解釋為何可愛不做事就能拿4800萬 09/11 11:38
ltmps : 湖人沒被要求掛名代言,更證實湖人一開始的定位就 09/11 11:39
ltmps : 是抬價用的,有些話不用跟湖人說,只要讓湖人高層 09/11 11:39
ltmps : 信心滿滿以為是領跑者就好 09/11 11:39
matsuwu : 前一篇一堆人自己腦補「行動」=不查…簡直莫名其妙 09/11 11:43
Amilous : "有些老闆呼籲嚴懲" 所以還是有老闆表態只是不公開 09/11 11:47
hasroten : 珍妮好像說有類似要求? 但他沒錢 09/11 11:47
EZ78 : 有 這篇有提到湖人 Uncle Dennis只有提次一級的要 09/11 11:49
EZ78 : 求 09/11 11:49
bleachdie : 我是覺得任何懲處或調查報告可能要明年才會有正式 09/11 11:49
bleachdie : 公告 09/11 11:49
bleachdie : 除非能在開季前全部搞定,包含懲處,而且公告前, 09/11 11:50
bleachdie : 一定會需要全球團一起開會 09/11 11:51
Amilous : 其實這篇阿銀也只是表示他有權力 避免之後不罰會有 09/11 11:51
Amilous : 人質疑他 根本是Ballmer的傀儡 先消毒罷了 09/11 11:52
airmike : 阿銀只是講一個非常官腔的說法被大家酸而已 09/11 11:53
ThreeNG : 上一篇資訊太少太片面。這篇完整多了,比較能看出 09/11 11:53
ThreeNG : 全面性的態度 09/11 11:53
airmike : 基本上不只一隊老闆爆料可愛 老闆們沒理由亂黑同一 09/11 11:53
airmike : 名球員 所以一定是覺得這種舉止很嚴重 09/11 11:54
ThreeNG : 其他老闆不可能不給壓力,我看最後還是會懲處。罰 09/11 11:54
ThreeNG : 大罰小問題而已 09/11 11:54
airmike : 包默和快艇有可能會沒事 但是可愛應該會被處理 09/11 11:54
Q12345Q : 今年要是快艇總冠軍 就真的神反轉了 09/11 12:02
jorden : Cuban要不是把小牛賣了 Ballmer至少有一票挺他 XDDD 09/11 12:03
EZ78 : 還沒打到冠軍就先被打星號了啦 反轉個屁 09/11 12:04
chouvincent : 阿銀也懂賴皮賴起來阿 09/11 12:05
kaybear3001 : 現在不懲處 賽季中也不太可能有動作 09/11 12:13
roger2623900: 阿銀的權力也是30個老闆給他的 09/11 12:13
roger2623900: 要收回隨時都嘛可以 09/11 12:13
kaybear3001 : 太空人那冠都沒取消 可愛這根本小事 09/11 12:14
kaybear3001 : 真的奪冠背後商機太大 不可能那時候再把冠軍拿走 09/11 12:15
s13140709 : 應該讓可愛直接禁賽吧 加上罰錢跟選秀權 09/11 12:15
kaybear3001 : 可以學台灣啊 未判先關 09/11 12:16
Amilous : CBA規則是可以直接取可愛的合約 09/11 12:19
Amilous : 取消 09/11 12:19
Landius : 不過口歪的那個假代言公司已經破產了,所以查完... 09/11 12:22
jasonkau : My powers are very broad. 好爽的一句話 09/11 12:22
jorden : 反正查完都下賽季了 09/11 12:24
justice2008 : 這個查證屬實快艇就掰啦 可愛直接解約 快艇加罰5首 09/11 12:24
justice2008 : 輪 09/11 12:24
Q12345Q : 看到達比修 變沒有 太鼓達人可惡且影響大了 09/11 12:25
Q12345Q : 結果論 快艇沒因此拿冠軍 Ballmer若沒做本就沒怎樣 09/11 12:26
blgame : 看起來他只是講說如果有怎樣我可以做很多 但現在看 09/11 12:26
Q12345Q : 若真的有做 真的被輕放 也會收斂點吧 09/11 12:26
blgame : 起來沒怎樣啊啾咪 09/11 12:26
Q12345Q : 進展這樣聯盟照說不會亂挺 但要是拿冠軍逆境九壯士 09/11 12:28
hot413 : 推這篇 上一篇只截那一段 09/11 12:36
trickydonkey: 推完整 09/11 12:43
immence : 就事實而言 擁有可愛一點鳥用都沒有 搞那麼多只是養 09/11 12:50
immence : 了一個冗員 09/11 12:50
sdiaa : BALLMER違規+造成其他老闆少分到錢 殺父之仇易忘 09/11 12:51
sdiaa : 奪財之恨難消阿 09/11 12:52
ghostxx : 不重罰那勇士湖人尼克那種大城開趴吧要搞這套誰不會 09/11 12:52
cama : 暗示舅舅主扛最符合聯盟利益?反正快艇這團沒奪冠 09/11 12:53
Amilous : 豪華稅又分不到多少錢 這麼多隊分 09/11 12:55
TheoEpstein : 總金額蠻可觀的 09/11 12:58
Wall62 : 就等調查結果出來吧 09/11 13:00
yurian : 其實意思就是沒證據就不會罰 長短差異而已 09/11 13:07
yurian : 前面回應質疑就是表示有人在懷疑會輕輕放下 中間是 09/11 13:09
yurian : 在說確實有證據再來考慮怎麼處罰 後面就是作者自己 09/11 13:09
yurian : 的意思了吧 把暴龍的事情帶出來 09/11 13:09
EZ78 : 嘿啊 背景都是Amick自己補充的 09/11 13:15
whrth2002 : 但不論調查怎樣,可愛已經黑了 09/11 13:16
EZ78 : 引用這篇文主要是要說Silver對這件事情的態度不是 09/11 13:16
EZ78 : 上一篇講的那麼荒謬 09/11 13:16
Landius : 口歪黑了也差別不大啊,他一季大概只打一半... 09/11 13:23
harrybbs : 惡名昭彰舅舅 你別跑 09/11 13:24
Landius : 快艇這一兩年就是抱著半顆霸王龍的蛋(?)在開局的.XD 09/11 13:25
sylviehsiang: 這件事扯在怎麼會用這麼不避諱的方式給錢 09/11 13:32
BronyXrG : 其實已經很避諱了 沒破產你根本不知道 09/11 13:51
BronyXrG : 就算知道要證明也有難度 09/11 13:51
hasroten : 可愛也沒差了吧 錢拿夠多了 09/11 14:01
yoyonigo : 這件事主要是如果你輕輕放下不就默認了聯盟認可這種 09/11 14:04
yoyonigo : 暗盤 那以後球迷會怎麼看待球員流動跟薪資架構的公 09/11 14:04
yoyonigo : 正性 而且也破壞了阿銀想要大小市場平衡的構想 09/11 14:04
cama : 沒鬼的老闆應該都希望聯盟嚴懲+徹查..吧 09/11 14:42
ppccfvy : 重重拿起,輕輕放下 09/11 15:11
ken720331 : 麻煩來多一點種樹 09/11 15:18
cckhyofg : 可愛禁賽不算懲罰吧 都常常自主禁賽了 09/11 16:38
O10lOl01O : 不一樣吧 被禁賽又沒薪水領 09/11 16:43

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